Ep 16: Intermediate RC Airplanes

[00:00:14] We’ll be right back.

[00:00:36] Ron and Tom.

[00:00:38] Hello, everyone, and welcome to the RC Plane Lab podcast. This is Ron.

[00:00:42] And I'm Tom. Hey, guys. So first things first, we now have RC Plane Lab merchandise. Shirts, pillows, coffee mugs, travel mugs, stickers. There's a whole lot of stuff. Head on over to our website, rcplanelab.com, and click on the shop link on the top of the page, and then look around to see what you like. It's a great way to be the envy of all your friends when you show up at the flying field in an RC Plane Lab t-shirt. It's also a great way to support what we do here.

[00:01:07] Our friends that signed up for our mailing list were the first ones to know about it. They received a 30% discount off all their orders. If you want to be the first to know about what we're doing behind the scenes and get future discounts in the process, sign up for our mailing list over at rcplanelab.com.

[00:01:21] Well said, Tom. So everybody head over, see what we have, and see what you like. I know the shirts that we got really turned out good, I think. we have our own swag, and their shirts are very comfortable. I love them, and the stickers and stuff turned out pretty good, too. So, yeah, I'm excited about that. And I know I will be wearing mine a lot as I fly this summer.

[00:01:42] I know I will be, too. Some stickers may even find their way onto my flight box. I’m just saying.

[00:01:50] Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, I never thought of that. So, yeah, awesome. So, yeah, in this episode, we're going to be covering intermediate rc airplanes, kind of like a second plane. what makes a good second airplane? What do you want to look for? What do you want to stay away from? So once you've mastered your trainer and you're fully comfortable with all aspects of flying it, that's everything. you're not worried at all about flying.

[00:02:19] Take off, landing, the whole thing. Yep.

[00:02:21] Yeah, and you're ready for something a little bit more challenging. It's time to move on to something that's a little bit more rewarding, I guess. And depending on your skill and confidence level, something that's a little bit more expensive. Yes. So, okay, speaking of expensive, I have something I want to say, and I don't know how really to say this without sounding like I'm putting the hobby down a little bit because that's absolutely not my intention.

[00:02:49] But, so this hobby is unique because each and every time we fly our airplanes, in the back of our minds, we know that it may be the last time that airplane flies. I mean, things unfortunately happen. Most of the time, the things that happen are preventable. But there are times when something can go wrong when you have done everything right.

[00:03:09] Yep.

[00:03:09] So really it doesn’t happen often, but that’s a hard pill to swallow, especially when you’re flying a model that you’ve put a lot of hours in the building or spent so much money on an airplane that you fell in love with.

[00:03:22] Yes.

[00:03:24] So, if you're just, you're just starting out in the hobby and looking to get your second airplane, this is something you may not know yet. You might not have learned this yet. You have to make peace with the fact that you may crash, and that crash could possibly cost you a lot of money or time. the biggest reason I don't fly my big yak often is because I'm not ready to lose it. Well, that and it's not quite in flying condition now. No, I know what you mean.

[00:03:53] Yep.

[00:03:54] Yeah, but I'm not okay with it crashing. Right. that plane still scares me. There's just something about it that I'm not ready to lose it. And it's not because it's difficult to fly, but just because I know what's in it. it's an airplane that I want to have around for a long time. It's an unfortunate truth that we have to be okay with crashing what we're flying. Yes.

[00:04:18] Now, I'm not saying that to be negative, but I found out early on that it's okay for me to crash an airplane, and I will only fly an airplane that I'm okay with crashing. Now, having said that, I try to be a cautious pilot. If the conditions aren't right, I don't fly. If there's anything questionable, I don't fly. That has saved me a lot of headache and a lot of money in the long run. That's also why I don't fly other people's airplanes, and I make a habit not to.

[00:04:48] I actually don't think I've ever flown one of your airplanes, but you have flown most of mine. Yes. Actually, if I did fly something of yours, it was something small, but I couldn't really tell you what it was.

[00:05:02] It would have been something small and electric, yeah, because you are a very cautious pilot. I would have to say that you're probably one of the most cautious that I know, honestly. Yeah, you definitely are not one to take risks, and I think most folks out there are going to understand what you're trying to say. It's not that we're ever really okay with crashing our airplanes, but you have to be okay with the notion that it can happen.

[00:05:31] Right. Yeah, I mean, I don't want it to happen. Right. Absolutely. But I've made peace with it that it could happen, and that's unfortunate. That's just a reality of what we do. like when I used to do the RC cars so much, you crash those all the time, and it was a $3 part that, you might break an A-arm or break some sort of linkage or something on it. No big deal.

[00:05:55] But with these, when you crash them, it could be a very cheap part, but most of the time it's an expensive part or the entire airplane is lost. So it kind of takes the hobby to another level of, what you're flying could very well be the last. And it's hard to kind of wrap your mind around that if you haven't experienced it.

[00:06:20] I agree with what you're saying. I mean, it is an unfortunate reality that it does happen for many, many different reasons. Yeah. and there's no way usually to know it's going to happen because if you knew it was going to happen, you would do something to prevent it. Right. Which is why we all do pre-flights.

[00:06:42] Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:06:45] Here's Tom's take on it. Right. So I have so many airplanes. And I'm not bragging at all. Okay. Really? I've been in it for a long time. And I tend to hang on to my airplanes for, lengthy periods. So a lot of the airplanes I still have are old. Right. But next to selling airplanes to club members or swap meets or eBay or whatever you're selling platform of choice, how else do you make room in the hangar for new airplanes if you don't crash them?

[00:07:20] Not that I'm suggesting that I crash airplanes on purpose because that absolutely is – there's nothing farther from the truth. However, in my mind, if I should happen to crash one, I can sort of – I don't want to say justify it, but I can sort of see the silver lining as in, oh, well, now I've got room in the hangar for another one. Maybe I've had my eye on this, on this, I don't know, cavalier, let's say, that I wanted to add to my hangar but just don't have the room.

[00:07:52] But, like I said, not that I’m justifying crashing airplanes, but I can sort of temper that sadness over a crash by realizing that now I have room for another project.

[00:08:05] Well, and it's all about your perspective, obviously. Yeah, you've been doing this a lot longer than me or, some of our listeners, I guess, that would be listening to this to kind of find out what a good intermediate plane would be. And it's funny because I remember my first airplane, I remember my second airplane, but after that, I could not tell you any order whatsoever. And I think for me, I think I probably remember it because they were such a different animal.

[00:08:32] The first one was a trainer, it was electric, and then my second one was a nitro. So you came in a little bit different starting with nitro, and then, I mean, electric wasn't a big deal back then. And, it wasn't really available until many years after you got into it. So. Right.

[00:08:50] It wasn’t practical.

[00:08:52] Right. And I think that's probably why it sticks out with me because I guess it's really not my second airplane I'm remembering as much as it's my first nitro airplane. So. Well, that makes sense. Yeah. So, and that's probably why it sticks out so much. But I do, I do have a soft spot in my heart for that airplane. So that is kind of like you don't want to crash it.

[00:09:12] There are certain airplanes you have that you would be more upset about if you lost than other ones. Yes. Because I have several, that it would kind of be in the same aspect or the same realm of what you're talking about. Yeah. If it's gone, pull the electronics out, put it in something new, no big deal. But there are a few that, like I said, I'm fond of that I don't want to lose.

[00:09:35] So that's something that I think when you're going to look at your second airplane, you kind of need to realize that some of these airplanes are going to mean more to you than others. Right. But you have to be okay with losing them all if you're going to fly. That's all I'm saying.

[00:09:49] Yeah.

[00:09:50] Oh, I get it. Yeah.

[00:09:51] Yep.

[00:09:52] I agree. So what was your second airplane? Do you remember it?

[00:09:56] Oh, yeah. Yeah. My second airplane was a Kraft Air Cowboy. It was a little shoulder wing, four channel, had some dihedral, had a flat bottom airfoil. But what it could do that my Trane Air 20 couldn't do was it would roll really well. It did really nice tight loops. And it didn't have a lot of that self-riding characteristics of an airplane that had, like a trainer with a lot of dihedral in the wing. That was my second airplane.

[00:10:33] It was great because the first airplane had an HB 25.25, I should say I guess engine on it that I actually used for my second airplane.

[00:10:48] See, I don’t know how you remember all that stuff.

[00:10:50] And I still have that engine.

[00:10:53] That amazes me because I couldn't tell you what engine is on. Well, yeah, I really couldn't tell you with the exception of the Yak just because that's, I remember that one. I couldn't tell you what is on any of the other airplanes I have. I couldn't tell you if it's OS or if it's a, I could tell you a two-stroke or four-stroke, but I couldn't tell you, if it's a 72 or an 82 or a 25 or anything that you're talking about.

[00:11:17] Well, that goes back to my fondness of engines, right?

[00:11:22] I couldn’t tell you, like what receiver or servos or anything are in those airplanes, but the engines I could tell you. I could tell you a lot about them, just because that’s my thing.

[00:11:32] Yeah, well, my second airplane was a Sig Cavalier. I don't remember if I said this before, but my second airplane was actually the first airplane that I tried to buy. When I went into the hobby shop for the first time with my kid, I saw it hanging up there and I tried to buy it. But the guy that owned it, he actually spent the time, he talked to me and asked if I'd flown before and asked, but, how familiar I was with the airplanes and stuff.

[00:12:02] And I told him not at all,.

[00:12:04] Right.

[00:12:05] So he was one. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Don't try to inflate your ego, I guess. If you don't know something, it's so much easier to say, I don't know, and then learn it.

[00:12:16] You learn much faster that way.

[00:12:18] Usually much cheaper, too. Yeah. You don't learn the hard way. Exactly. So, but, by doing that, he led me to the Hobby Zone Super Cub. And that was a good plane. I did get used to that one. It was probably two weeks or so from the time that I bought it to the time that I would call myself proficient and not worried about.

[00:12:40] You flew a lot in those two weeks, too.

[00:12:42] Oh, daily. I mean, multiple batteries a day. Because after I got that plane, then I went and I think I bought four batteries for it. So I had five all together and would charge all those and then, every day be going through them all. So, yeah, I mean, back at that time, I just couldn't get enough of it. So then I went back in there and that plane was still hanging. And so I bought that one.

[00:13:05] I think it was one that a club member had had or something he was getting rid of. But whatever it was, I bought it. I think I paid like 80 bucks for it for it had everything except a receiver. So I bought a receiver and stuff and got it home and put fuel in it the first time, got ready to fly it. And the fuel leaked out everywhere.

[00:13:27] Oh, no.

[00:13:28] So, yeah, apparently it had been sitting in this guy's basement for a long time. The fuel tank was all messed up. And so instead of flying it, I think in the next two weeks, I ended up taking the whole plane apart because, with those tanks, they're built in. it's built around it. So you can't just, pop a hatch off and fix the tank. So I had to cut all the covering off and did all that. And then it didn't, whoever built it didn't put a canopy on it.

[00:13:57] And it looked really weird without the canopy and the coloring that was on it was kind of odd, too. So I ended up ordering a canopy from SIG and did it the way I wanted it. I did the red and black color scheme because I love red and black together. And so, yeah, put it back together. And that was my second airplane. Went out and flew that and had many, many good flights on that one. It was a nitro. But I don't know what engine was on it.

[00:14:24] I'm not the, I'm not Tom, so I can't tell you that. But, yeah, it was a good flying airplane. I loved it. It had a little bit of dihedral in it, so it did have the self-riding characteristics of it. But for me, that was graduating to ailerons. So the first airplane I had didn't have ailerons, and this one did. So there was so much more control, so much more you could do with it.

[00:14:45] And it felt like I was actually flying the airplane as opposed to just kind of- I don’t want to say having the airplane doing the hard work, but there was a lot more to it than just flying a three-channel.

[00:14:59] Right.

[00:15:00] And that's what you need for a second airplane,. You want something that's going to be a little bit more difficult to control because you're working harder. You're learning. You want a little bit more to do.

[00:15:11] Right. And we're, like, I want to, I just want to make a note. So you really need to be off of the safety devices or the crutches before you buy into your second airplane, or at least be comfortable flying the current airplane that you have if it has those technologies with them turned off. Right. I mean.

[00:15:32] Yeah, I agree.

[00:15:33] I mean some of these airplanes, like, for instance, that I believe it was a Hangar 9 P-51 with the safe technology, that could really honestly be like your first, second and third airplane, if you want to look at it that way, depending on how you set up the safe technology and how you graduate yourself off of it.

[00:15:52] So when we’re talking about your next, like your intermediate airplane, we’re kind of assuming that you’re off of the crutches and you’re off of the safety devices and flying the airplane with no assistance from technology.

[00:16:08] Yeah, I'm the same way you are. I don't have any planes that have that on it. Actually, I don't know if you have any of those or not, but I don't fly with that. See, I think you and I kind of both learned to fly before that was really available. Yes. and I think, it has its, its pros and cons because it's good because it gets more people into the hobby. but the cons are, I think people think they can fly more than they actually can.

[00:16:39] And so then when they do move up to their next plane, it's more difficult to fly. It doesn't have some of the, the helpers on it, that, their first one did and then they crash and then you wonder why, I, what happened? And well, you were not doing as much with that first plane as you thought you were. It was the computer taking care of it. So I, I like to stay away from that stuff just because, I like to fly my planes.

[00:17:07] I don’t like the computer to fly my planes.

[00:17:10] Well, right. I mean, that, that's, I mean, for me, that, that's what I get out of the hobby. it's me in control of this thing that I built with no assistance from, from anything or anybody. Right. and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not putting down the technology. I think the technology is amazing. I mean, it, it, like you said, it's, it's introduced so many people to the hobby.

[00:17:35] Yeah.

[00:17:36] But if we’re not careful and we if we don’t understand what the purpose of that technology is, then yeah, I think, I think we can. Perhaps somebody who’s learning with safe technology may at some point think that they’re more skilled than maybe they actually are, And their next airplane could be a disappointment because they don’t have that technology.

[00:18:00] To, to back them up.

[00:18:01] So I'm making the assumption that, we've, your next airplane, you've, you've graduated from AS3X or safe or whatever the technology is you're using. Then you're flying the airplane with none of those, with none of those, or none of that assistance from, from technology.

[00:18:19] Yeah. And it's, it's so weird anymore though, because it, it used to be, like a few years ago, it was so easy to say, for a second airplane or something, stay away from like the EDF jets, for instance, they're, those are more advanced, they fly fast. They're very twitchy because, any little controller input really makes them move a lot.

[00:18:40] But a lot of them today have that technology built in and it makes it, yeah, they fly great with them.

[00:18:50] And not only that, but that then does make it a pretty decent second plane because, kind of like what you said before, you get the performance of the jet that a lot of people like I mean. Really that’s, when you pick your second plane, you’re kind of going down the path that you want to go down. You’re you’re kind of going to go with if it’s warbirds or 3d planes or whatever it is, that kind of draws you into it.

[00:19:16] That's when you start picking the planes you like, not just buying it because it's an easy plane to fly. You got to learn on, but nowadays with the, with the technologies and stuff, if you decide you want to use them, a plane like that could be your second plane.

[00:19:33] And then, like you said, kind of work into being like a mock third plane, to where it will fulfill the role of both second and third plane, because you can fly it with the safe technology or the helpers, and then you can turn them off and actually fly it yourself. So it’s it’s. It’s kind of hard to say what a really like good second plane would be, because everybody has such different ideas of what they want for an airplane.

[00:20:02] I’m sure I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’m sure you would probably say like a stick would be a good second airplane.

[00:20:10] Oh, I, I would, I would say that.

[00:20:13] Right. But to me, I think a stick is kind of ugly and I, it’s not, I don’t disagree.

[00:20:22] I'm sorry. It's not a beautiful airplane. I will admit, but boy, do they fly good. Wow.

[00:20:28] Right. And, and so that's, that's kind of the point, they fly really well. They, they don't really have any bad tendencies, but they don't look the best. Now I'm not saying that they couldn't be made to look a little bit better.

[00:20:41] Yeah.

[00:20:41] Yeah.

[00:20:41] You could dress them up a little bit, put a canopy, maybe, maybe stick a pilot on there, like a kind of a red Baron kind of a thing. I mean, yeah, you could, you could, but it's, it's still, it's still a basic box fuselage with the, with the high wing and the, and the iron crosses and I don't know. You're right. It's not a beautiful airplane.

[00:20:58] But if you put, like a, a, a pilot on there or, or something to kind of liven it up. I mean, to me, that's the, you can't have an airplane without a pilot or without some sort of canopy. Even if it's a blacked out canopy, you can't have an airplane without a canopy that just, that adds to the look and just kind of makes it look complete. but so I, I think you're right.

[00:21:22] If, if you made those modifications on, on some of these planes, some of these sticks, they would be a lot better looking. cause I, I do like the one that you have that's still for the last two months or whatever has been sitting over here. I'm looking at it right now in my basement. I'm, I'm, no, it's not your fault. cause I know you'd prefer to have that finished and be flying it now. Absolutely.

[00:21:46] But, but yeah, so I, I understand why you like those planes because they fly so well. So that, would be a good second plane for that. And then they don't, well, I shouldn't say they, that one doesn't have any of the, the, say for AS3X or anything built into it. So you're actually flying it. I still would say go with a second plane that you fly yourself. I mean, that would be my, my thought in it. Yeah.

[00:22:12] If you, if you ask me on using that stuff at all, first plane is fine. Use it to learn, then get away from it. But that's, that's, like I said, just me. Some people would like to fly with that forever. So do whatever you want, obviously, whatever makes you happy, because that's, that's the good thing about this hobby is there's so many ways to get into it and so many ways to have fun with it that, what you like, I might not like and vice versa.

[00:22:38] And that’s fine because we’re both happy doing what we’re doing.

[00:22:42] Yeah. I mean, we can, we can sit here and talk to, we're blue in the face about why we like a particular airplane or a particular aspect of the hobby. But I mean, it's, it's our hobby, it's my hobby, it's your hobby, it make it, make it what you want. I mean, we're just, we're just a couple of guys talking about what we like and recommendations we would make. I mean, that's really, really all it boils down to.

[00:23:07] And hopefully you can learn a little bit from our experience.

[00:23:10] Yeah. So we did kind of get off topic and I apologize. We, we've kind of talked about intermediate airplanes, but instead of picking an actual airplane, what would you look for just in general? Like if you were going to tell somebody to get a second airplane, like high wing, low wing, mid wing, what's the pros, what's the cons, wing shape, dihedral, just kind of talk me through some of that kind of stuff and what you, what you would say to them.

[00:23:37] Yeah. So there's a, there's a couple of things that I look for. I look for, for, as a second airplane, I would look for an airplane that maybe has a, a semi symmetrical airfoil shape. So many of the trainers out there, most of them have a, what we call a flat bottom.

[00:23:53] So that if you took one of the ring- excuse me, wing ribs and looked at it from the side, it would have a flat bottom, like the name implies. You set it on a table and it sits there flat with no gaps and it doesn’t rock back and forth or anything like that. A semi symmetrical airfoil has a has a more rounded profile on that lower, lower surface, so that the top and bottom shape are very similar, semi symmetrical, almost the same.

[00:24:22] And what that does for you, it allows the airplane to do more aerobatically, if that's a word. so, so that'll roll a little bit better, they'll, they'll turn a little bit better. And what they won't do, that, that a flat bottom or a trainer type airplane will do is they won't kind of correct themselves. Like a lot of the trainers today with all the dihedral and, and the flat bottom airfoil, you get it in a turn and you let go of the sticks aerodynamically. They're so stable that it, it tends to want to ride

[00:24:52] Itself. So it returns to a straightened level. an intermediate airplane with a semi symmetrical airfoil won't do that. you turn it, you roll it into a turn and you neutral, put the stick back to neutral tends to stay in that attitude. So you're in more, you have to be more in control and, and that that's what develops your skills as a pilot.

[00:25:14] And so does it stay at that attitude because of the, the shape of the wing or the lack of dihedral? And also, what difference does it make whether or not it’s a high wing, low wing or mid wing? Just in this example, where you’re talking about banking, does that make any difference with the wing?

[00:25:32] So, so most of that, believe it or not, has, has not a lot to do with the, the position of the wing on the airframe on the fuselage so much as how much dihedral it has and the shape of the airfoil. So, let's, let's take a stick, for example. the sticks that I, that I like so much are, are what I would call a shoulder wing or maybe even a high wing.

[00:25:57] If you, if you, if you can imagine, it's just the wing sitting on top of the box, right? That's done. It doesn't have a built up portion to raise the wing. but if you build those with the wing flat and a symmetrical airfoil, they're actually quite aerobatic. I mean, they're not, they're not going to be an extra or an edge or a yak or something like that, but they're actually, they roll very, very good. They, they will snap roll if you, if you have the CG just right. but it, that would be considered a high or shouldering.

[00:26:30] Conversely, I can think of, SIG four star 40 or four star series. Goldberg used to make an airplane called the, the, the tiger sky tiger. They may have been 40 and 60 sizes. And these were low wing airplanes, but they, they flew almost identical to, to a stick, that had a flat, a wing with no dihedral. So the position of the wing on the fuselage, I mean, it does make a small difference, but the biggest difference in the, and the biggest contributing factor to that stability that we're talking about is the dihedral

[00:27:04] In the shape of the airfoil, which is why on an intermediate airplane, you want to maybe get something with a little bit less dihedral than a, than a trainer and a, and an airfoil that's a little bit more symmetrical, if that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. I, I follow that. So then like

[00:27:22] When you, when you go to a, like past an intermediate airplane, then the, the midwing ones, those will like be more aerobatic yet, correct? Can be. Yes. Can be. Okay. See, I always thought that it was kind of like trainers were high wing. And then I kind of thought that the next, airplane that you went with would be like a different symmetrical or a different, wing style, low wing airplane. And I thought like the, the, the center lines were the more advanced,

[00:27:55] Like the most advanced kind of, kind of airplanes, but I guess I’m completely wrong.

[00:27:59] Well, no, it’s not that you’re wrong. It’s just that there’s a lot of other factors in play.

[00:28:04] Like for instance, I mean, let's compare two airplanes that are very similar in layout. Okay. Like, so everybody knows what a Piper Cub is, right? High wing, very stable, many, many years, we used them as trainers in the hobby. and let's compare that to say a, a Belonca, Satabria or a Decathlon, same type of airplane. It's a high wing, you've got your cabin underneath the wing, Hershey bar wing, basically a long slender wing, but a Decathlon

[00:28:37] Is, is a crazy aerobatic. I mean, you can, you can see these things flying in air shows all across the country. but it's a, it's a similar layout. I mean, it's a high wing, just like a Piper Cub, but you can't see a Piper Cub doing all those things. And it's all in the shape and size and,

[00:28:56] Design of the wing. so like I said, I didn't realize that. Yeah. So the position of the wing on the, on the fuselage is, I don't want to say it's irrelevant. It does make a difference. But, the biggest difference is, is how the wing itself is designed as far as airfoil shape and, and dihedral. generally speaking, more dihedral is going to be more stability, but less aerobatic, right?

[00:29:20] And then vice versa. Less dihedral is usually a little bit more aerobatic, but you sacrifice that stability. I mean, without getting into theory and stuff like that, aircraft design is a an exercise and compromise. I mean, you, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. What I’m

[00:29:38] Saying? So then when like wing stalls and, and just stalls in general, that is going to be more, based on the type of the wing than not the type of aircraft. Is that correct?

[00:29:52] Yes. I would, I would generally speaking, I would say, yeah, it’s all in the design of the wing.

[00:29:57] So then like a flat bottom plane would stall at a lower speed than like a symmetrical wing?

[00:30:05] Potentially. Yes. If, if all things were equal, it's the same airplane, just with the, with a different, rib profile or, profile shape of the airfoil. Then generally speaking, a flat bottom wing that has a flat bottomed airfoil with lots of dihedral will probably stall at a lower speed than a similar setup with a symmetrical airfoil. So what else would you look for in a, in an intermediate plane? Well, I mean, it would depend on, what sort of airplanes I like,

[00:30:37] Right? I mean, I like airplanes just in general. So, for me personally, it's, it's, if it looks cool and it has the, the, the performance that I'm, that I'm after, that's, that's what I go for. but, everybody's different. A lot of people like scale airplanes, like warbirds and stuff like that. And certainly there are some warbirds out there that are, that would actually make pretty good second airplanes. maybe,

[00:31:08] Maybe not a P51 Mustang or a Spitfire or something like that. maybe a, a P47, with a, that's been, what I would call a standoff scale with a slightly modified airfoil.

[00:31:22] Actually great planes for a long time made a really nice, 40 size P51 and the airfoil was based off of the, I believe it was the ultra sport, wing. And that was a great flying airplane flew like a sport intermediate airplane. It looked like a warbird. So, I mean, yeah, there's, there's lots of choices out there and it really is going to depend on what sort of thing, tickles your fancy, so to speak. but really you want to look for something in your

[00:31:52] Intermediate airplane. it's all about the wing and you want something, I would say you would want to try to find something with a semi-symmetrical or maybe even a symmetrical airfoil with some dihedral, but not a lot. And nitro, it's gotta be nitro.

[00:32:08] Yeah. You, you push that. No, I, I get it. yeah, with, with nitro, if, if you did start out with electric and you wanted to go with nitro, there are a few extra tools obviously, and a few extra things you have to buy. We've talked about that before. so just be, be prepared for that.

[00:32:23] But yeah, it is a, it is a whole nother monster, I guess, to get into nitro from electric. So, and, and it's worth taking the step just to kind of, just so the differences so you can feel the differences. Cause they, I mean, they do fly differently. Sure they do. And,

[00:32:41] A lot of those differences come down to, to things like wing loading too. we're talking about wings. Wing loading is, basically how much, how much weight per square inch you're asking that wing to support. So obviously the lighter your model, the, the less weight it has to support. So the lighter, the wing loading, airplanes like warbirds generally, if they're scale generally have pretty high wing loading. So you're asking a lot of that wing. So it has to move through the air a lot faster to support the

[00:33:14] Same amount of weight. So, and what that translates into is, high landing speeds, high takeoff speeds. It doesn't really slow down. And when it does, it, it does these nasty things called tip stalls and spins. And if you're lucky, you have altitude to recover, but, that's something else you want to, you want to sort of look at too, when you're looking at your second airplane is try to stay away from something with, with a high, amount of wing loading.

[00:33:44] And those numbers vary from airplane to airplane, but, when you're doing your research and you'll, a lot of the manufacturers will, will actually specify in the specifications of what the wing loading is. And, I think, I'm probably wrong. but I think the general rule of thumb was, anything under, 19 or 18 or 19 ounces per square inches is considered fairly light. Anything over that is, is heavy. And most warbirds, I think fall, fall into that heavy category.

[00:34:13] Yeah. So then they're, they're, they're more of a handful to fly then because you have less wing to carry the heavier airplane. So you're going to need more speed behind it to keep it

[00:34:22] Flying. Exactly. Right. Yep. That, that's kind of, that's kind of the things that I would look for in a second airplane. And, and what I would, what I would, suggest to somebody if they came and asked, Hey, I've been flying this apprentice for, a month or two, and I'm pretty comfortable with taking off and landing. And now I'm, I'm looking for my second airplane. the first question that I'm going to ask is what kind of airplanes do you like, like what, what, like really gets you jazzed up about the, about the hobby and then,

[00:34:55] Try to find something that fits in that category. Yeah. That's good advice because what,

[00:35:01] What you might find as a great second airplane might not be what I would go to just looks wise. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times they're going to fly, not identical, but fly a lot alike. but it just depends on, on what gets you going, what you like. So like, like,

[00:35:17] Not, not everybody likes the same thing, right? That's why basket Robbins has 31 flavors. Not, not everybody likes chocolate. Chocolate's the best. Anyway, that's, yeah, that's why they have 31 flavors. Yeah. Myself, I, I, I, I, like if I had to make a recommendation, I know you said we weren't going to, but, if I had to make a recommendation for somebody who just wanted to fly a good flying airplane and maybe, maybe even learn some aerobatics, I, of course I would

[00:35:49] Choose a stick and then beyond, beyond your second airplane, then, then the floodgates are open. You choose whatever, whatever floats your boat, but, beginner aerobatics, I think, I think it's hard to beat a stick or, or a stick or something that's designed like a stick.

[00:36:06] Yeah. It's, it's good to get into something that's a little bit more expensive, expensive, for your second airplane than, than, than what you, what you started with. I really prefer balsa models. foamies are awesome, but there's just something about the looks of a balsa model. And I, I just think that the built up models look a lot better to me. I agree. the foam doesn't quite give you the, that look. I mean, I, I know they've made a huge leap forward in like what the shapes they can do with foam and all that stuff, but it's still

[00:36:36] When you get up close to it, a bunch of small balls of foam. and that just, I don't know, it loses its realism to me. It loses its, its effect when you get up close. and

[00:36:48] What's funny about that is that I know exactly what you're talking about and I, and I feel the same way. I really do. But having said that, when you, when you get one of these things in the air, 25, 30 feet or more away, all of that, that I can't, to put a word on a fakeness, maybe all of that just sort of melts away and then it looks like an airplane. It's, but then I know what you mean up close it, then you've got the cheese factor and yeah, I know what you mean.

[00:37:16] Yeah. I, I don’t know how to describe it, but it just, it just doesn’t, it’s not quite the same.

[00:37:21] Thing to me. for me, it's about modeling and, and the foam, the foamies are, are great. I've got, I own plenty of them. yeah, but, but, they're not, they're not what I would call a model. A model to me is something that, that I've constructed, and I don't know if I can't put my finger on it either, but I know what you're talking about. Well, and it depends too, because some

[00:37:47] Of the foam airplanes you have are actually hand carved foam airplanes that were comb or carved out of a block of foam. to my good friend. Yep. Yeah. And that, that, those look good. I mean, I do like those and I don't necessarily, even though I guess technically they are, they are foamies. I don't really consider those like a foamy. right. I'm talking about the EPR or the, what is it? The EPP or EPO, whatever it is, the blow mold or the expanded poly, yeah, whatever that stuff is. Right. that's the kind of stuff that I, yeah, the bumpy stuff. Yeah. Not the extruded

[00:38:22] Stuff. Right. and like I said, it just, it loses its realism to me and I, I just, I don't know. I like balsam models. So maybe, what, intermediate airplane, go find yourself a kit,

[00:38:33] Go build something. Well, of course, that's going to be my recommendation. Build a, build a,

[00:38:38] Build a stick. Yeah. Or really, if you're, if you're going to be into it, buy yourself a good second airplane and at the same time as that, buy yourself a kit, start putting it together while you're flying that other one. then it's kind of the best of both worlds. No, that's not bad, bad advice. Yeah. I just thought of it. So there you go.

[00:39:02] That's pretty good. That's kind of what, that's kind of what I did. except I didn't finish my first actual, model. it's, it's kind of funny because I, the first kit I ever bought was a Piper Cub. I got the wing probably 90% of the way done. And I'd say a good 10 to 20% finished on the fuselage. and then I walked into the hobby shop one day and there was a Piper Cub sitting there ready to fly. I mean, it was one that another, one of the club members had,

[00:39:32] Traded off for something bigger and better, I guess. this one was bigger than the one that I was building and it was ready to go. And I was like, I want this one instead. So I bought that one, without planning on buying it, at all. and actually I think my wife was with me that time and I kind of got a look when I walked in and the guy that owned the hobby shop had it.

[00:39:58] I don't know what he was doing. He was putting the different, landing gear or something on it and he had it up on the counter and I walk in and I was like, Oh my God, I want it. And he's like, seriously? I said, well, yeah, how much is it? And he told me and I went ahead and bought it.

[00:40:13] And, my wife's like, are you, are you serious? Are you really doing this? I was like, yeah. you have one of these at home. It's not finished. So, but yeah, I mean, that's how, that's how a lot of these airplane purchases went. So I don't think I've ever heard that story. Huh? Yeah, that was, well, actually I don't think I was decent friends with you at that time. I really hadn't caught back up with you by then. and then that plane, I ended up trading it to somebody else. I don't remember what I traded for. but anyway,

[00:40:48] And then I ended up getting that back from him. So I still have that one.

[00:40:52] It's funny how, how airplanes change hands. I know. Right. And a lot of times they end up back with the original person. Yeah. I'm looking at, I'm looking at two of them on my shelf here that, that, that, that was their story as well. Funny. Two. I can think of one. What's another

[00:41:09] One? Your, your T-34 mentor. I know how that one made it's, it's full circle back to you through me and then through somebody else, but what was the other one? Yeah. my big yak

[00:41:19] Here has, has been out of my hands and back into my hands, twice now, I think.

[00:41:27] I didn't know that. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Small world, I guess. Right.

[00:41:33] Yeah, I guess so. I just don't like, I just don't like my airplanes to get very far away from me, I guess. So I know you said you, you couldn't remember beyond your second airplane,

[00:41:43] But do you remember your third one? after I said that, I kind of started thinking, and I don't remember if this is my third one or not, but I kind of think it is. but it was that Katana that I bought from the hobby shop that ended up being yours, that I crashed.

[00:42:04] And I, I'm pretty sure that was my third airplane. I can't remember if there was anything else in between, Oh, so, okay. Well, that was a trick question. I just wanted to see if you knew, if you would recall it the same way I did. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a, I flew that one a couple of times and that was about all I, and see, like, to be honest, I, I, with that one, I think that's kind of when I learned to be more cautious. I crashed that one and I I've told the story before I crashed that one because I thought I could do something on it that I, I couldn't,

[00:42:36] On the simulator, I was perfectly fine doing it, but in real life, not the same thing. so pretty much since then, I think I've, I've kind of calmed down and not been so gung ho to try something until I'm more comfortable. and I, I just, that's just how I am. I don't like, risking stuff I don't have to risk anymore. So I'm, I've always been a little bit like that. Like I actually remember, so speaking of that T34 mentor that you, that you have now, I remember we did some trading and that came to me. I never flew it. I never flew it because I

[00:43:12] Remember you saying, this is a little bit more, it's a faster plane. Just kind of

[00:43:17] Be careful when you fly it. Yeah. Especially when you pull the gear up. It's, it, it, for what it is, it's, it's very fast for, for those of anybody that might still be listening. it's an old hanger. It's an old hanger nine T34 that they haven't made in a long time, but I wish they still made him because it does fly really, really good. Well, and that was the other thing,

[00:43:38] I when, before I got it off you, you were talking about even at that time. That’s been what? Seven years ago now, maybe six or seven, whatever- you said that was an airplane that they don’t make anymore. Even back then And you had it for a while and stuff.

[00:43:53] So I almost felt like I needed to take care of it. almost like I had a responsibility for some reason to you to take care of it and make sure it lasted as long as it could. So I, I never flew it. And the guy I sold it to, he actually never flew it either, which is only, only because I, I mean, I, I stress so hard to him. Just don't do it. You're not ready. Don't do it.

[00:44:25] Tom wants his plane back. Don't do it. So luckily we, however it all lined up and worked out, I don't, I don't know, but you got it back without him flying it because his whole thing was, well, I want to fly it once. And I was like, well, if you fly it once, it's nobody's ever going to fly it again. Cause that's, I don't mean to be rude, but at that point, that's where he was, he wasn't, and that's, he's not anymore. And no offense if he's listening,

[00:44:56] He, no, he's a much better pilot now, but then maybe a little offense. It's fun too, but you

[00:45:02] Know, no, no, he was not ready for that at that time. And that was one thing that he, he kept asking me, why don't you fly it before you sell it to me? And that's why I kind of explained to him, well, because then I might not have something to sell to you and then I can't go buy this other one that I want kind of thing,? So it's, it's, it's one of those things to where just calm down, it's exciting. I know it is, but just take a deep breath, let's not do silly things that are going to cost us in the long

[00:45:30] Run. I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that I'm the last one to have flown that airplane. And I haven't flown it since I got rid of it the first time. So that should tell you something.

[00:45:39] Well you, now see, I don't remember, did you fly it? Cause I, I know I was out there with you one time when you flew, but I don't remember if that was when I owned it or when you owned it. Nope. That's, I owned it. Yep. Okay. So that was, that was probably the last time that flew. So that's been, remember I had a camera on it, right? And we did some, no, that was before me. Nope. That was before me. Cause I saw that video a long, long time ago, but I wasn't out there for that one. Yeah. I don't remember who you said had the camera, but that was, no, I wasn't out there for that. Okay. That was before we started hanging

[00:46:13] Out. Yeah. It hasn't been flown in a long time. And the reason is that the covering is, is not in the greatest of shape. And I'm actually worried that it's, the covering is so brittle that it may come off of the wing in flight. So the plan is eventually recover it. But the, the problem is that the, the canopy is, has, is also kind of brittle and has turned yellow over time. So I'm afraid that when the time comes to pull the canopy off, that it's going to crack and you can't get them anymore. So I'm going to try to, I think, figure out a

[00:46:47] Way how to maybe, pull a canopy off of the old one, if that makes sense, or maybe make a.

[00:46:56] Plug, from the old canopy or. Yeah. I, I just, I'd pull it off and we can, we can make a plug from it and, and do a vacuum form thing. That wouldn't be any problem. Okay. Yeah. I just think

[00:47:06] Before I go to recover this thing, I would like to have a plan in place to sort of restore the canopy, because what good is a covering job on an airplane like this if I can’t get a?

[00:47:19] Canopy on it? No, that's true. And like I said, I'm not, I'm not too concerned with making one. We can, fairly easily, I think get that taken care of. It's a big canopy though. I mean, it's very long if you remember. Yeah. But I don't think that's all that difficult. As long as we get a good

[00:47:38] Plug made, we can play around with it. All right. Well, we've kind of gotten off the topic,

[00:47:42] So. Yeah. Sorry. I haven't talked to you for a while, so this is kind of us catching up too. It is. This damn virus. I know, right? That's what I said. It's been, what, a couple months since you've been out here. It's a couple months now. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's weird. It is weird.

[00:48:00] It's lonely. It is, right? And I miss my stick. Dang it. And I see it every day.

[00:48:08] And I think, oh, it's in my way. No, it's actually not. If it was that big of a deal,

[00:48:12] I'd take it over to you. But yeah. Okay. Well, it's safe there. So, or well,

[00:48:17] I hope it's safe there. I'm assuming it's safe there. Yeah. It's over in the corner. Nobody

[00:48:21] Goes back there. As long as it's not in your way. But anyway, yeah, that, I think, I think, I don't think I have anything more to add. yeah, go out there and find a, a good looking airplane that has a semi-symmetrical airfoil and no, no safe technology and get after

[00:48:39] It. Yeah. Four mistakes high, get up there really high. So if anything happens, you can recover and enjoy your next airplane. Yeah. Yeah. Get something that you like. Yeah. Yep.

[00:48:52] This is when it's time to start getting, go down that path of what you like and find what excites you. And you'll stay in the hobby a lot longer if you have stuff that really just kind of screams at you. Yep. So, all right. Well then, I don't think I have anything else either. So, until next time I'm Ron and I'm Tom. Goodbye. Goodbye.

[00:49:13] If you enjoyed this episode of the RC Plane Lab podcast, for topic suggestions, to ask questions or to give any feedback, connect with us at rcplanelab.com or email us direct at either ron at rcplanelab.com or tom at rcplanelab.com. You can also text us or leave us a voicemail at 818-351-9846. Please subscribe, rate, and review us on your favorite podcast app. Until next time, may your landings be gentle.